Channels with Peter Kafka

"Black Mirror" creator Charlie Brooker knows that everyone thinks his show is about tech-fueled dystopias. But he says it's really about humans, not their tools. I loved this chat back when we recorded it in 2023, when Brooker was promoting the sixth season of his Netflix show. Now there's a new season - and Brooker's vision of the world is as relevant as ever. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's the best way to describe what Emily Sundberg does? Substacker? Influencer? Journalist? Brand-builder? Let's go with "yes". And she does a much better job of describing herself in our conversation, where we talk about how she went from being a laid-off marketer at Meta to a one-woman business with a devoted following and a revenue line that’s up and to the right. A very quick primer for those of you haven't heard of Sundberg and her Feed Me newsletter - she’s building a very interesting publishing company that revolves around her reporting, insights and taste, aimed at people who make good money and spend some of it on very nice restaurants, shops and hotels in places like London, LA and New York. My assumption is that a slice of her audience doesn’t do any of that at all — but wants to read about people who do. In olden times, Sundberg might have a column in a glossy magazine - and in fact she spent some time working at places like New York magazine on her way up. Today what's left of the glossy magazine world would love to attach itself to her. It’s a very 2025 proposition. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want smart, nuanced insight into Apple’s products and would-be products, you turn to John Gruber, who’s been blogging about this stuff for more than two decades at his Daring Fireball site. So in March, when Gruber announced that Something is Rotten in the State of Cupertino — focusing on Apple’s botched plans to imbue its ailing Siri service with state-of-the-art AI — lots of people paid attention. Including, apparently, folks at the very top of the Apple org chart. I talked to Gruber about the fallout from that post. Which is pretty interesting! But there’s a lot more going on in this conversation. It’s partly about the friction Apple has been generating lately — not just about its AI efforts, but the way it runs its App Store, and the way it interacts with developers — and why all of that does and doesn’t matter. And it’s also about the delightfully retro practice of running an ad-supported blog in 2025. That works very well for Gruber, but it seems like the new Grubers of the world are doing their work on YouTube or Substack. He’s got some thoughts about that, too. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here’s one where we try to do two things at once: Have a convo about green shoots in media with two smart guys who know media really well — Semafor’s Ben Smith and The Rebooting’s Brian Morrissey. Try to find new audiences for our respective podcasts, by cutting up that conversation into 3 parts, and distributing those parts to our respective feeds. Which is to say: You can hear more of the this conversation by heading to Semafor’s Mixed Signals pod, and you can hear a different slice of the chat by heading to Brian’s Rebooting pod. It’s an experiment, based on the thesis that the people who listen to one of our shows would be very interested in listening to the other shows. Did we get it right? What can we do to make it better? Please let us know. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Scott Frank used to write great movies, like “Out of Sight.” Now he’s a Netflix guy, and a super successful one: he made “Godless,” a horses-and-everything Western for the streamer, then had a pandemic-era phenomenon with “The Queen’s Gambit.” Now he’s back with “Dept. Q”, his take on the British mystery genre. You can find that one on Netflix’s top 10 lists in the U.S. and around the world. I like talking to Scott on this show — something we started doing way back in 2017 — because he’s happy to talk about the mechanics of his work, and the economics of Hollywood, and how they intersect. And that’s what we’re doing during this chat too. We discuss the backstory behind his newest show, his take on the history of the streaming bubble, why he’s pretty sanguine about AI in Hollywood but very nervous about its new tech overlords — and the industry he’d get into if he was starting his career in 2025. (Hint: it’s also something that gets consumed on screens.) Help us plan for the future of Channels by filling out a brief survey: ⁠⁠voxmedia.com/survey⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I admit it: I most definitely rolled my eyes in 2019, when Twitter announced vague plans to build an "open and decentralized standard for social media". At the time I didn't really understand what then-Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey was trying to do — or why the head of a social media company with plenty of problems was messing around with plans to create more social media companies. I get it now: Bluesky was a science project that aimed to let people build their own social networks. And that's still what it is at its core, says Bluesky CEO Jay Graber. But in the meantime, Bluesky has also become an accidental Twitter rival, with some 36 million users. And most of them likely don't care about Bluesky's origins, or the fact that it's really supposed to be a technical framework for decentralized social media. Or what decentralized social media means, for that matter. All of which means that talking to Graber about Bluesky means you're doing two things at once: Asking about how Bluesky, the app, works — and what Bluesky, the idea is. Which is what we did when we talked at Web Summit Vancouver in May. Also discussed here: Why is Jack Dorsey mad about Bluesky? What’s up with ads and Bluesky? And who designs Jay Graber’s T-shirts? Help us plan for the future of Channels by filling out a brief survey: ⁠⁠voxmedia.com/survey⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today we’re talking about how you take a media property that’s been around for a long time, and find a way to bring in new eyeballs — and new revenue. That property is Wired — the place that told you about the internet before the internet even existed — and the person who’s reviving it is Katie Drummond, who has been running the property for a couple of years. As we discuss, Wired has always done interesting and important work — but when Katie got to it, she had a plan to inject it with new life. And it turns out that this plan had Wired perfectly situated to thrive during the Trump 2.0/Elon/Doge era. Also discussed here: Tech’s actual view of Trump; how Canadians actually view America; and how to give yourself a Condé Nast glow-up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adam Mosseri's official title is head of Instagram, Meta's massive photo and video app. He also runs Threads, the Twitter clone the company launched two years ago. Unofficially, he's become one of Meta's chief explainers, frequently jumping on social media to defend and proselytize on behalf of his employer. So when I got a chance to interview Mosseri, I had a long list of questions about… lots of things: I wanted to know how Mosseri felt about the company's recent pivot to Trump-friendly policies, and how he looked at TikTok, for instance. And while it may not be the most important thing on Meta's roadmap, I was also really curious about a unique opportunity Mosseri created for himself: the chance to build a brand-new social network from the ground up. What did he want to accomplish with Threads, and what mistakes that earlier social networks made was he hoping to avoid? There's a bunch in here. Take a listen and let me know what you think. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The iPhone you’re reading this on was made in China. For a long time, that fact was a huge part of Apple’s success story: Working hand-in-hand, Apple and China built a sophisticated supply chain that let Apple manufacture very complicated technology at an enormous scale. Now that relationship seems like Apple’s achilles heel, says Patrick McGee. McGee covered Apple for the Financial Times for years. Now his new book “Apple in China” explains how Apple ventured into China, spent years and tens of billions of dollars investing in the country’s production infrastructure, and now seems trapped there — and in the middle of the U.S./China trade war. McGee’s book is in large part a history book, and one that I’d recommend to anyone who wants to understand Apple, and China. It’s also, obviously, a very timely one. So this interview is part “how did we get here” and also “what happens next”. (Spoiler: Moving Apple’s production to India and Vietnam — something you read about periodically — isn’t going to happen, if ever, for years.) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I wanted to talk to Ian Rogers about his fascinating career. He wanted to talk to me about Ledger, the crypto wallet company he’s working at now. So we did both things. Background: Rogers was an important figure in the digital music business, back when the music business was being fundamentally reshaped by digital. He helped the Beastie Boys get on the internet, long before every band did that. Then he helped bring digital music to millions of people in the MP3 era - first at AOL, then Yahoo — and then in the streaming era — first at Beats, and then Apple Music. Then he did digital stuff at LVMH, the luxury goods conglomerate. Now he’s chief experience officer at Ledger, a French company that has sold 7 million physical storage devices for crypto. I remain confused and skeptical about crypto, but I’m always open to hearing from folks who are passionate about it — to see if they can convince me that I’m missing something. And the most persuasive argument I hear is usually from folks like Rogers — people who were around when the internet was novel and exciting in the 90s, and think they’re seeing the same kind of tectonic shift this time around. It’s a pitch that’s part FOMO — you wouldn’t want to be one of the people who thought the internet was a fad in 1995, right? — and part blue-sky optimism: What if it was 1995 and you could get in on the ground floor of the internet? Take a listen and let me know what you think. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's podcast is an in-depth discussion of Apple's App Store rules and how they... wait! Don't leave! I could try to tell you why Apple's App Store rules are important to both Apple and the digital economy (sadly, I just realized I've been covering them for nearly 15 years, so they better be important). But a better messenger for that task is Tim Sweeney, the CEO of Epic Games - the company behind Fortnite. Sweeney has spent 5 years fighting Apple in court - and by his estimation has sacrificed $1 billion in revenue - over the way Apple runs its App Store. For most of that time it seemed like a futile effort. But last week a federal judge handed Epic what could be a huge victory, and could potentially cost Apple a meaningful amount of revenue. Apple is going to appeal that ruling, but for now, Sweeney sees this a win for his own company, and many other developers who've chafed at the fees they have to pay Apple every time a consumer wants to give them money. And if you think none of that matters to you, a normal person, Sweeney is happy to explain why (he thinks) you're wrong. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There are all kinds of ways to measure the health of an economy. The one I rely on is ad spending. One reason for that is simple: I work in ad-supported businesses, so I want to know about things are going to affect me personally. A less self-interested reason: The health of the ad business is tied directly to the way companies feel about their overall health. So if things turn south, you’ll often see it in falling ad spend. And as the industry gets increasingly digital, that means it’s that much more responsive to changes in the economy: When the pandemic hit 5 years ago, ad spend all but disappeared for a couple months — and then roared back once companies realized how much spending had shifted online. So that’s the background for my chat with Smartly CEO Laura Desmond, who I often rely on for a state-of-the-state when it comes to the ad industry. Desmond is a longtime ad biz veteran, and at her current gig she works directly with digital clients, helping them figure out where to place their money and the best way to optimize their campaigns. So she’s got excellent insight into the most sensitive spenders in the market. Desmond’s takeaway: Long-term changes like a possible TikTok ban just don’t show up on most advertisers’ radars. But potential tariff impacts, which could hit by late May, could be a big hit — if they materialize. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Every day some 85 million people - most of them kids - show up to play, chat and spend money on Roblox. That’s a massive audience just about any tech or media company would like to have. But David Baszucki wants more: He thinks his platform can eventually command 10% of the worldwide gaming market. I spent time talking to Baszucki about those ambitions and what has to happen to make it a reality. But I also wanted to spend time getting him to explain what exactly Roblox is, and why its low-fi, user generated games resonate with his audience. It’s an unlikely special sauce that has made the company, which spent years flying under the radar, worth some $40 billion today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Some people don’t want to pay for media. But lots of people are paying Jake Sherman and his team at Punchbowl News: The 4-year-old startup is thriving by providing super-insidery news and data about what’s happening in Congress. I chatted with Sherman because I wanted to get an update on his business (he says he’s not going to sell it anytime soon, despite lots of speculation to the contrary). I also had a basic, outside the Beltway question: In a world where Congress spends a lot of time not passing bills, what exactly does Punchbowl cover? He was happy to spell it all out for me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The New York Times faces the same challenges every other news organization faces in 2025. But it’s also in way better shape to take those challenges on: Thanks to a business model built on 11 million subscribers, it’s not nearly so worried about things like the fluctuations of the ad business, or changes in Google’s algorithm. That comparative strength also gives NYT publisher AG Sulzberger the ability to do things his peers can’t or won’t do: Like suing OpenAI for copyright infringement, instead of taking a cash settlement. Or calling out the likelihood of a press crackdown if Donald Trump was re-elected - a call he made in September that looks very prescient today. We talk through both of those issues in this conversation, and a bunch more - like the role of the NYT opinion section, how willing the Times is to experiment, and how the paper thinks about the economic turmoil we now find ourselves in. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Trump 2.0 era is less than three months old. But it’s already creating havoc for journalists and the companies they work for. In Washington, Trump and his team are demoting traditional media - or kicking them out of the White House entirely. In corporate boardrooms, he is forcing media owners to settle lawsuits they would normally fight, and to submit to investigations from newly aggressive regulators. Again: We’re just at the beginning of this new era. What’s coming down the pike? I asked Sara Fischer, the excellent and Washington-wired media correspondent, to walk me through it Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Call it symbiosis. Call it co-dependency. However you want to characterize it, there’s zero debate that Big TV and Big Sports are deeply intertwined. So if the TV business is shrinking, what happens to sports? That’s the main question I had for John Ourand, the longtime sports business reporter who’s now at Puck. But I had lots of related ones, like: Now that (some) college students are getting paid to play sports, how does that affect the TV product itself? What’s happening to the local sports networks that bring you baseball, basketball and hockey? And is the sports betting media boom drying up? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Anyone who makes things thinks they could do it better if they had more. More money, time, headcount, infrastructure. Some of us find there can be upsides to doing it with less, too. That's not exactly PJ Vogt's story but I think it's directionally accurate: Vogt cohosted a huge hit podcast - Reply All - and when he decided to try again - with Search Engine - he had a lot less to work with. That shaped his thinking about the company he wanted to run and the product it puts out each week. It seems like it's working, and Vogt walks us through the details and his decisions. Also joining me: Zach Mack, who has helped other people (like me) make podcasts for years, made one that only he could make. Go listen to his "Alternate Realities" series on NPR's Embedded - but first listen to how he made it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Back when I first started covering the internet, the idea of broadcasting yourself for hours on end seemed like a pipe dream for weirdos. Now it's how some people make a living. Twitch more or less created live-streaming in the U.S., which is why Amazon bought it for about $1 billion back in 2014. But now there are plenty of places to watch, and create, live streams. How does Twitch fend off competitors? How does it convince its most popular streamers to keep streaming? And how will Amazon eventually make real money from the operation, which is was still in the red a few years ago? Those are all questions I asked Twitch CEO Dan Clancy, at a live taping at South by Southwest. Clancy also got to hear firsthand from Twitch's users and partners in a Q&A session at the end of our chat. Thanks to everyone who came out, and thanks to the folks at the Vox Media podcast network for putting it all together. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We had to stop recording this one for a minute, because Matt Belloni got a text. More on that below. Big picture: Matt is a longtime Hollywood reporter - and lawyer before that - who now has the industry's ear via his writing at Puck and his The Town podcast. I asked him to talk about what lies ahead for the Oscars, the out-of-step TV production that still has big audiences and prestige; and the current state of Hollywood, the business. Also discussed here: Awards party catering, and the most popular movie executive who isn't Bob Iger. For the record: When we started recording this podcast, the audience for Sunday's Oscar awards had declined yet again. By the end of it, new numbers meant it was the most popular show in the last five years. Obviously we would have preferred to know that in advance. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices